destructor Report This Comment Date: September 25, 2005 06:26PM
Most of this is bullshit.
At least you agree with the Iraq invasion, unlike Kuwait, the coalition forces
will implement a democracy instead of returning another despotism to the
throne.
"WORLD WAR II/1941-45/Naval,troops, bombing, nuclear/Hawaii bombed, fought
Japan, Italy and Germany for 4 years; 1st nuclear war."
I also agree that this was a mistake. We should have only fought Japan and
fought the Soviets aswell.
Hmm, we share some opinions which the majority do not. Do you belong to any
political groups in particular?
aDCBeast Report This Comment Date: September 25, 2005 07:17PM
destructor
Most of this is real. The WWs were needed however most of the smaller covert
actions led to more trouble than they were worth.
That is what happens when military brass attempts to think rather than just
follow orders.
John_Stone Report This Comment Date: September 25, 2005 07:19PM
9/11 was provocation, not self-defense. And the US fell for it.
As Condi Rice sez: "US foreign policy is about defending US
interests." That's basically it.
It's not about democracy, it's about corporate expansion into new markets. The
ME is largely nationalized economies. US Corporations don't like that and
wanted in. The US also wanted to control the oil flows, and positioning
ourselves in Iraq, kicking out the puppet-who-turned-on-us (Saddam), was the way
to do it.
Remember, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Not a thing. The hijackers were
largely Saudi, and trained by Al Qaeda. Bin Laden did not like Saddam because
Iraq was secular. Not Islamic.
At the moment, US forces are effectively backing a government who is creating a
"constitution" that ignores two large factions of the country, and
pushes heavily towards an Islamic state. So we are effectivley fighting to
create an Islamic authoritarian governement (Shiite).
If we did actually "implement" democracy (how does one do that again
with bombs and stuff?), the Iraqis would vote us out of the country in a New
York minute. Already a majority want US out of there. Besides, our presence is
only fueling jihadi resistance from all quarters.
Democracy? My ass.
destructor Report This Comment Date: September 25, 2005 08:02PM
"GERMANY/l948/Nuclear threat/Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin
Airlift"
"CUBA/l962/Nuclear threat, naval/Blockade during missile crisis; near-war
with Soviet Union."
"LIBERIA/1990-?/Troops/Foreigners evacuated during civil war; troops
protect CIA communications/listening post."
Sorry, just flicking through the mountains of these incidents, I don't see any
crimes. Only hyperbole. If the US was really a totalitarianism, centrla and
south America would be completely occupied by despots by now. Nations such as
Venezuela and Cuba have appalling human rights records and the majority of their
population lives in poverty, whereas heavily americanised nations such as Mexico
are the most developped in central and south america, yet completely independant
and harbour anti-american governments without much espionage related resistance
from the US.
In order to be more correct in the future, I suggest you check your facts before
jumping to conclusions.
John_Stone Report This Comment Date: September 25, 2005 08:22PM
And the US has the highest per capita prison population in the world. Worse
that Stalinist Soviet Union... Care to comment on that?
The US has supported or placed despots the world over: Pinochet, Saddam,
Noriega.. just to name three. Let's not forget the US-sponsored terrorist wars
in Nicaragua, El Salvador, Honduras. As for Venezuela, oddly Chavez has
apparently received massive support from the poor because he is nationalizing
the oil supply, and helping the poor out. The poor have formed "Bolivarian
Circles" to educate one another politically, and they turn out in droves to
vote now. When Chavez was kidnapped, it was largely due to the massive populist
demonstrations that managed to reinstate him.
I believe neither the original poster, nor any subsequent commenter are saying
that the US is a "totalitarian" gov't. It does, however, favor
corporate interests over the interests of the public need. Which, according to
the dictionary definition, is appallingly close to fascism.
If we let market forces rule our country, which we are well on the way to doing,
we will be full of poverty too.
Now look, some will say "Oh I'm tired of hearing people rag on the
US". Ok fine, then don't listen. But America was founded on the right to
dissent. Dissent is about pointing out the problems and organizing to fix them.
There are many good things about the US: a largely well-off population, lots of
food to go around, material wealth, running water, comfort, ability to yell and
scream about bad things going on w/o getting a bullet to the head. Even the
poor aren't as bad off as in some other nations I can mention.
But we are on Plus613. We are not seriously able to organize against the bad
things. So we comment, and point out good and bad things.
America is far from perfect. We have lots and lots of power. Mostly military
and economic power. Now power, as we know, corrupts. And guess what, our
government is getting kinda stinky. We do not export good-will around the world
very much, at least not compared to the amount of machiavellian tinkering we do
in other nations' affairs.
We don't have to wave the flag and say, 'fuck you, america is great.' And we
don't have to sit back and wag our fingers. But let's be realistic.
Most of South America lives in poverty. Hell, most of the rest of the world
lives in poverty. 2/3rds of the human population don't have running water. It
is not america's fault, these things. However, America has done some very, very
bad things.
Why don't we list the good, and work to fix the bad? We can do that together,
can we not?
jgoins Report This Comment Date: September 25, 2005 09:32PM
"And the US has the highest per capita prison population in the world.
Worse that Stalinist Soviet Union... Care to comment on that?"
Maybe because we don't kill criminals like most other countries. Maybe we
should start, kill someone you die, steal you lose a hand, commit rape you lose
something else. How happy do you thing we Americans would be under that kind of
rule? If you don't like it here cast your vote the way you want it otherwise
leave the country.
aDCBeast Report This Comment Date: September 25, 2005 11:17PM
jgoins
The US doesn't kill it's criminals ?
Most 1rst world nations don't kill their criminals either yet we lead the way
with the number of people convicted of a jailable offense.
Makes me think that putting people behind bars is a business and has nothing to
do with whether a crime was committed.
Anonymous Report This Comment Date: September 25, 2005 11:18PM
considering the cost of this war in iraq and the potential savings we might see
in oil - I doubt this war was over oil
Anonymous Report This Comment Date: September 26, 2005 12:41AM
It isn't the job of the US to bring democracy to anybody. We don't even have
democracy ourselves- how could we possibly impose it. Incidentially IMPOSING
DEMOCRACY IS LIKE FUCKING FOR VIRGINITY. Isn't possible. Democracy is by
definition chosen. If the US government continues to act as if we have the
right to order world events, the world will continue to TEACH us otherwise.
Bottom line, 911 was a lesson. Pray that our stupid ass military dictatorship
gets it! After all, aren't business interests in the US mainly military. Only
half of the evil emipre fell, remember, Rome had an eastern and western half.
The eastern (soviet half) fell, and the western half (ameriKKKa) has lingered
on, best on all sides by enimies. And oh how the Romans do suffer.
John_Stone Report This Comment Date: September 26, 2005 01:30AM
155106: You are right. It's not about delivering cheap oil to American
consumers (we're not citizens anymore, you know). It's a geostrategic move.
Saddam had stabilized an otherwise fractous Iraq by keeping the Shiite and Kurd
groups under control. This is not the sort of "stabilization" a
peaceful person like you or me would want, of course, but there was no civil war
like there is now. The Kurds are trying to control the northern oil fields
(using ethnic cleansing and eviction to get rid of non-Kurds), and the Shiites
control the south, while the minority Sunnis (Saddam's tribe), get shit out of
luck with nothing.
Saddam had given us the finger, and we ruined his
country (1991, and the 12 years of bombing that followed), and finally
"ousted" him in 2003. Yes, he was a tyrant and a horrible person.
But he was the US's horrible person until he gave us the finger. We used Kuwait
as a pretext to fuck him up.
Additionally, the US gets to put their hands on the oil spigots and interefere
with.. guess who.. China and it's increasing industrialization.
China is making huge Natural Gas and oil deals with... Iran. We keep
threatening Iran with bogus claims that they are building nukes. In fact, we
are trying to hold Iran to higher standards that the IAEA has for anyone else,
in order to make them look like bad guys, and give US justification to invade,
or send in spies, or mercenaries, or something, I'm not sure what. If we can
control Iran, then we have a handle to manipulate China with.
Don't forget that China and the US are at odds over... Taiwan, and both are
scared it will come to blows. (Oh dear god, don't let us go to war with
China...) What does Taiwan do for us? Build cheap semiconducters, memory
chips, and Dell computers, among many other digital things. If China takes
Taiwan, our computer industry begins to fluctuate in a bad way.
Its all very messy, of course.
Additionally, by invading Iraq we get to take their nationalized markets and
open them to international (ie. American) corporate acquisition. Most of the
middle east has a nationalized economy where the gov't owns the resources, and
controls the money from them. Iraq is the 'free market' beachhead in the
M.E.
The US sent none other that M. Peter McPherson to Iraq to rewrite the economic
code into US style 'free market' rules, where our companies can come in, buy the
resources at fire-sale prices, and use the 50% unemployment in Iraq for cheap
labor, and make a pretty little windfall. The only problem so far is the
resistance and now civil war making profits a little dull.
There's more, but I won't bore you any further.
27225 is right about the democracy thing.. it's just a PR ruse to keep the
Uh-mer-i-can public supporting the war effort.
John_Stone Report This Comment Date: September 26, 2005 01:31AM
Oh shit, I wrote too much. No one'll read that....Sorry folks.
Anonymous Report This Comment Date: September 26, 2005 03:37AM
No true American gives a shit why they want to kill us, the fact is they did..
3000 in the WTC and I hope we burn everyone of those Bastards to glass, the
sooner the better. In my opinion, if you feel different, get the fuck out of the
U.S. and live your life away in your better country..
Anonymous Report This Comment Date: September 26, 2005 03:41AM
Your RIGHT you wrote too much, and only a few pussie non-american aliens, even
listen to, let alone read that bullshit.
CaptJames_Kirk Report This Comment Date: September 26, 2005 09:40PM
I love the U.S.ofA.
Anonymous Report This Comment Date: September 26, 2005 09:40PM
I dunno. Seems like a fairly intelligent discussion going on here; that is
until you red, white, and blue flag waving morons showed up and pronounced death
on all of AmeriKKKa's enemies. The reason they hate us, under- and mis-educated
AmeriKKan moron, is because for every one of the 3000 of our citizens killed on
911, your fascist government has murdered thousands of their people. They
retaliate for a reason, and yes, you talk big and bad now, but when they show up
at your kids school and murder them all (like your government has done), then
lets see how big and bad you are. Stop your nationalistic ranting for a minute
and think, could "they" have a legitimate grip against your
government. If you look at the bloodthirsty track record of the US, you may
honestly conclude yes. We the citizens of the US must stop our government from
repeating the same mistakes, victumizing innocent people around the globe, IN
ORDER TO SAVE OUR OWN CHILDREN"S LIVES potentially. Now drop the nonscence
and act like you have a brain!
Anonymous Report This Comment Date: September 26, 2005 09:42PM
At least John Stone can form a contraction.
Ever wonder why the US news is saturated with the
story of the spoiled party biatch (white girl)
missing in Aruba? How many Amerikans know where
Aruba is? How many know that Venezuela is the
second largest oil exporter to the U.S.
Like everything else, including "911",
FOLLOW THE MONEY!
Who has profited
Who pays
Who suffers
Anonymous Report This Comment Date: September 26, 2005 09:52PM
don't fucking forget the british empire! how many places did they fuck up?
aDCBeast Report This Comment Date: September 26, 2005 10:59PM
Anonymous@238240
What about the millions that the US has killed in various military actions over
the past 130 years ?
Now is the only time the victims of western imperialist agression have been able
to mount an attack to defend themselves.
Did you think US brutality would go on without suffering some kind of
consequence ? That basically they would get away with murders ?
Anonymous Report This Comment Date: September 27, 2005 04:16AM
Why did you stop at 130 years? We have been kicking foreigners asses when
needed or bailing their asses out of trouble for longer than that. Did you think
US suffering would go on without brutality or some kind of consequence ? That
basically they would get away with murders ?
Anonymous Report This Comment Date: September 27, 2005 05:04AM
Oh, right! Like what the British did somehow justifies US agression. FAce it,
AmeriKKKans are morons because the US government chooses not to educate its own
citizens. Easier to control morons. U-S-A! U-S-A! S-T-U-P-I-D (and proud of
it!)
Duane Report This Comment Date: September 28, 2005 08:58PM
Morons,you cant even spell dumbass,or use capitol letters for that mater!The
people of the U.S.A were attacked on 911 not the millitary,so if we choose to
revel in the killing of the middle east region,deal with it.We get no sympathy
from them,they get no sympathy from us.
Anonymous Report This Comment Date: September 28, 2005 10:35PM
Surely only the government can use capitol (sic) letters?....and what does
mother (mater) have to do with it? Millitary?? People who live in glass
houses, Duane, shouldn't throw stones.
John_Stone Report This Comment Date: September 29, 2005 02:06AM
Who cares about speeeling.. don't distract us.
Yep, the brits were fuckers too. That's no lie.
I think the larger point is that whomever is the most powerful, keeps that power
through violence.
The lesson should be: We need to work towards a less violent world. How do we
do that?
For one, Americans can work to get their gov't to stop doing stupid ass
clandestine violent shit. But really, it's starts in your own house.
Right?
Violent thought, violent actions.. you can choose to not do them.
anonymous Report This Comment Date: September 29, 2005 06:18AM
let us not forget spain, stalin, hitler, etc, etc. do you enjoy your way of
life in the usa? it's going to be them or us.
Duane Report This Comment Date: September 30, 2005 02:32AM
195244 Ive allways wanted an all glass house so you could watch me take a shit
and then do what I think of your opinion,flush it.Spell check this,SUCK MY ASS
TURDBOY!
John_Stone Report This Comment Date: September 30, 2005 03:41AM
997, I disagree, it doesn't have to be them or us. It is possible to further
the causes of peace in the world. If the USA wasn't so stupid as to use the
provocation of 9/11 to attack a wholly unrelated country, and kill countless
civilians, inflaming arab sentiment, and causing thousands into the waiting arms
of Al Quaeda... we could be making the world a better place.
Don't you see how we are playing straight into their hands? A secretive,
non-national group makes a spectacular attack on the most powerful nation on
earth, and gets exactly the response they wanted.
The US, in response, launches a massive military occupation of arab lands. This
answers the prayers of Bin Laden Fuckhead, and Arabs everywhere flock to the
"cause".
So great, we are inflaming war which will continue for the rest of our lives,
and into the next generation or two.
IS the USA leaders were SMARTER, we could have used diplomacy and peaceful
strategy to defuse this whole situation. It would have taken time, yet, but it
would be better than what we have now.
We cannot bomb the world to peace.
The_Doc Report This Comment Date: October 02, 2005 04:51PM
you guys take the fun out of plus613